Pharaonic mau and Indian mau, the 2 sides of the bronze

I t very much depends on how you define "New" and we need to take into accountthe cumulative effect of Bronze to Bronze breeding .

Peter

Hello Julie

Where do you get this figure of 30% from ? what is IOC ?

Peter

Polygenes of rufus! On how many locus? we are not sure at this point.... brought to the higher carriage level on warm bronzes (which I love don t get me wrong!) and brought down to complete absence on pure silvers! One could also clear the rufus with exclusive bronze to bronze breeding by selecting kittens the opposite! Or warm up the silver carriage by selecting tarnished silver kittens for future add on the bronze lines.... With imports the importance is to keep away the blue, the red, chocolate, cinnamon, wrong eye color, the albinos genes (burmese, siamese...), long hair (on at least 4 locus!) and try to have pure spotted cats without recessive for non-spots! I also do prefer a broken classic over a broken mackerel (though CFA in USA now don t prefer one over the other!)... This is possible to achieve while introducing imports but with a lot of work, risks (yes imports are a way more risky investment!), time and expenses... Adding an import is not an easy way! I did it because I do believe in it for the health of the breed! With surprising good first results!

I have "breeder assistant for cats 4" in which I actually have around 1400 maus, and I can reconstitute a lot of pedigrees up to the Fatima first imports... it is really hard to find a match, especially of warm rufus bronze, with less than 30% on the coefficient of inbreeding (COI) on more than 8 generations up. One can work with that for a while but at some point a good outcross (a real good outcross should be less than 5% on 8G, though I recently heard of 15% on 10G) has to be introduce. It would be nice to have outcross with same goal (color by example) with low COI. THe COI seems to be better with silver lines, probably because of the higher number of breeders.

To all!
I would love to hear opinions on what would be a good outcross on the COI for the introduction of a new cat in a breeding program? and on how many generations to rely?

Bonjour a tous!
J aimerais bien avoir les oppinions concernant ce qui represente un bon "outcross" sur le coefficient de "inbreeding" pour introduire un nouveau sujet dans un programme d elevage? et sur combien de generations?

I think the degree of inbreeding in Bronze maus depends on the diligence and carefull selection of breeding stock from existing lines by the breeder concerned.

Peter

Well.. It doesn t really answer my question! What should we try to get into outcross COI? Doesn t mean we have to reach it but try!!!

Why do we need an outcross?

Peter

Just because it is a genetic health principle... Any isolated population in the animal world including humans ends up having genetic flaws and I cannot see why maus would do differently! Unless one can do better than the rest of the world!

I am with the CFA on this issue.

Peter

phcl a écrit:I am with the CFA on this issue.

Peter

???
I guess we don t see things the same!
I don t want to go into an argument that goes nowhere and is not useful to any of us!
I am not sure what you are talking about for CFA.... but if it is the non-import politics (or very difficult ones that nobody would even try!), it came from just a few peoples on the EM council and I honestly don t think it is the opinion of all members! Too much critics on it!
And knowing you are a very pro indian lines (which is sure a good cause of devotion!), it would be good to look around and wounder about these precious lines which may be in danger to disappear if nothing else is done about them....
By the way, your avatar is a very beautiful example of them!!!
Thanks

I am pro Heathy Bronze Egyptian Mau's with a low inbreeding rate bred from purebred stock.

Peter

There is no lines without imports!!! If ever you can make a demonstration of a bronze going up to only the Delhi maus as import other than the three cats brought to USA Fatima.... please share it!!!

This could go on forever.
You obviously think that importing cats of uncertain parentage will be a genetic advantage to the breed. I do not.

Peter

But you know... descendants from imports will end up in CFA anyway whenever one can provide a three generations pedigree not showing a Fx or Tx... and as all other registries accept imports a way or another and a lot of maus owners (or breeders) look at 3-6 generations at the most, they will come anyway to, yes, improve the existing lines! I have to admit that new blood cannot be added on without precaution and must surely be done carefully! And with some knowledge about genetics!

"Purebreed" is a term meaning "meeting the criterias established by humans"... so it is why there are different visions of what is a purebreed egyptian mau... for me it is a cat BB-DD-(Agouti or not)-CC-(inhibitor or not)-mcmc-SpSp-ss-oo with no lockets, no gloves, black paws, green eyes and with a specific body conformation... plus you have the actual bronze debate on the presence or absence of rufus polygenes. On the top of that you should not have any disease present on board (surviving cats in Egypt have to be quite healthy to even survive!!! Anyone who went to Cairo understands that! So after infectious diseases have been seriously rulled out these cats carry no more risk than pedigreed cats!). Some lines could also deviate from the standards even from "many generations registered maus"... how many amber/brownish eyes bronzes now???? or too short legs or malpositionned ears??? Selecting on a single color criteria could deviate other traits!!! And it is seen!

This conversation is quite sterile! The descendants of our cats will one day or another more than probably meet their way together as the pool is so small!

Changing topics: Do you want to exchange kittens???

I give up, and let you write the last word if you want!!! I think everybody already figured out that we are both quite stubburn

WHAT A HORRIBLE THOUGHT!!! one of our Beautifull Bronze Queens being molested by a Cairo Streetcat.

Peter